...but Ivanova, she's got some legitimate weaknesses and fracture points, and so really the whole face-off between Villainous Dude and Supportive Boss are just sort of...background for her thing. It's a reason for her to be doing interesting things in the foreground, and occasionally we're forced to cut back to My That's An Obvious Scar I Wonder If You're Evil Man and his villainy to keep the plot moving around her.

Likewise, I remember reading that in early drafts of Star Wars's script, Obi-Wan survived the movie, but Luacs realized that Obi-Wan didn't have much to do after he confronts Darth Vader, so that he gets more plot mileage from killing him off.

I found watching it later that it was completely unnecessary. I mean, the Lennier and Garibaldi subplot is cute, but we never see the motorcycle again (A total wasted opportunity, I thought; surely there would prove to be a time when the extra speed it provided Garibaldi within a level could have been a plot point?).

But the other plot (And I never divided Ivanova's side of the conflict from Sinclair's in how I considered the story - which, now I see you doing it, actually helps make more sense of the episode), while, as you say, revealing for Ivanova's character, just didn't convince me it was a real threat, or affect the future.

Horsing around?

One nice bit is that Garibaldi *does* worry: saying about something to hide, "maybe we do", and then saying "I know you're a by-the-book guy Jeff, but we rewrote the book a couple of times to make B5 work" (or something like that, quoting from memory). It helps reinforce something I like about this episode, which is that Garibaldi, often presented as the fuck-up, is here the one who keeps a calm head, his wits about him, and pulls Ivonova & Sinclair out of self-destructive cycles (more Ivonova, yeah, but Sinclair too, e.g. his stopping Sinclair from hitting Ben Zayn) and generally does for them what they do for him in "Survivor".

That is an excellent point; I had not connected Ivanova's history with her mother to her relationship with Talia. And that raises some interesting speculation about what Talia gets from the relationship. Ivanova isn't your average blank; she's been close to a telepath before, and may even know how to focus her thoughts for reception.

I’m not sure if Sinclair is a Gary Stu or simply cardboard. I don’t know enough about JMS to tell.

My vote is for cardboard. Given that Sheridan was a somewhat better-drawn character serving roughly the same function in the story, my feeling is that JMS, aside from Sinclair's issues wrt the Line and the Minbari, just didn't find Sinclair that interesting. I think you're exactly right in that, by the time JMS got around to actuating this thing he'd been working on for so long, Sinclair had kind of become part of the setting. If I was going to pick out a Gary Stu, I'd say the position is split between Ivanova and Garibaldi.

Fade Manley @1: ::giggles::

My That's An Obvious Scar I Wonder If You're Evil Man

I remember reading some while ago something the origin of which I forget about the fictive equivalence in movies and television of facial deformity with moral deficiency. I found myself not only deeply disappointed in the Ben Zayn's comic-opera villany, but by this obvious bigotry in an otherwise pretty conscientiously diverse show.*

Becca Stareyes @2: I think the renovation of the lead character was indeed (as JMS claimed) a happy accident resulting from O'Hare's departure. The departure itself resulted from events IRL, I'm pretty sure. That was JMS's story and, based on other intelligence, I believe him.

Bruce Cohen @7: Somewhere along the line, I got the very strong sense that Ivanova is a telepath, or at least latent. She's just better than most at hiding it.

--

* My time. This would have been, uh (counts on fingers) 6am Sat your time? Okay, maybe not. (Well, anyway, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing anything requiring actual cognition at 6am.)

** This is one of the reasons I loved Ham Tyler in the original V. Didn't hurt that Ironside came by that scar honestly.

(I've been watching ahead, so now I actually know what you're talking about.)

And I am with you on the "disappointed that facial scarring means evil" side of things. Though I actually sort of slotted it below the general disappointment of "people who oppose the protagonists must be evil." One of the things that I do like about Babylon 5 as it goes along is the extent to which conflict gains complexity. It strikes me as sort of unsettling to run a fictional universe with the assumption that anyone who ever questions a decision made by the protagonists must be a Bad Person, or at best Misguided. I love this show, but especially in early seasons, I spend a lot of time sort of uneasily wondering who watches the watchers*, as the command staff conspires to merrily thwart anyone who'd ever disagree with their decisions. It does seem to get better as it goes along, on that point.

* Though frankly, I've never been able to take that saying half so seriously, despite its great utility as shorthand for a broad concept, since reading it in context. Juvenal had many a witty saying, and a hell of a lot of them that are cheerfully quoted as Ancient Wisdom are coming from the mouths of not particularly sympathetic or wise characters in his satires. Much like quoting the advice of Polonius as Wisdom From Shakespeare.

Fur fnlf va fb znal jbeqf gung fur vf n yngrag gryrcngu, yngr va frnfba gjb, "Qvivqrq Yblnygvrf". Gur frnfba svir cybgyvar jvgu Oleba jnf bevtvanyyl zrnag gb srngher ure vafgrnq bs Ylgn (Oleba'f fvzvynevgvrf gb Znephf jrer vagragvbany).

Full disclosure; I was a Daily Mail reader in the '90s, although it was mostly for the cartoons.

I didn't feel strongly either way about Sinclair on first airing, beyond thinking that Picard would wipe the floor with him. Then when he Did His Thing, I retconned the woodenness into a sign that he was the kind of guy who would Do That Thing.

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/12/jazz-age-villains-of.html

Note the two that Cory calls 'properly scary villains'. I can't help feeling that Mr Dalton didn't come by that scar in a childhood fishing accident [though of course he may have done].

Two examples:

1 (spoilers through the end of S1): Gur genvgbe jub fubbgf Tnevonyqv jnf fhccbfrq gb or gur frpbaq-va-pbzznaq (sebz gur Cvybg), Yg. Pzqe. Gnxnfuvzn (jub jbhyq unir riraghnyyl orra *ercynprq* ol n tehag sebz bcf anzrq Fhfna Vibabin). Jura gur npgbe cynlvat Gnxnfuvzn yrsg, WZF qvqa'g xrrc gur cybg jvgu gur KB, ohg fjvgpurq vg gb Tnevonyvq'f frpbaq-va-pbzznaq, jub jnf bayl va 3 be fb rcvfbqrf. Gur erfhyg: zhpu, zhpu yrff pbby fgbelyvar.

2 (spoilers through at least S4, basically for the whole thing): Gur nep gung raqrq hc orvat *fcyvg* orgjrra Ylgn naq Gnyvn jnf nyy fhccbfrq gb or gur fnzr punenpgre. Vs lbh xvaqn fdhvag naq gel gb frr vg nf nyy gur fnzr -- fb gung [punenpgre] trgf fybjyl qvfrapunagrq jvgu CfvPbecf va F2 naq vf gura fybjyl sbeprq onpx vagb vg va F4 -- vg vf n zhpu zber cbjreshy fgbel guna jung jnf riraghnyyl chg ba fperra.

And yet despite Dalton's scar, it's De Gracy's shadowed pale eyes that put the shiver in me.

And hey, while Polonius was a lousy father and his advice to his son was lame and impersonal, at least it wasn't malicious - it beats quoting "first let's kill all the lawyers" as Wisdom from Shakespeare...

Somewhat related to that, one of the nicer filks I heard at Consonance last weekend was (I think Kathleen Sloan?) doing "Things to do in Denmark when you're dead", telling Hamlet from the point of view of the ghost.

Me, too.

Stepehn Frug: @17 Makes me pine wistfully for the hundredth time for a proper remake with all the character arcs intact.

Shame he never showed up again. Perhaps he survived the Telepath War and was able to realize his dream to be a pilot.

I liked Grey too. A good character, well played. I actually went and checked to see if he reappeared, and was disappointed when he didn't.

(And all you Sinclair fans? Heretics. Every one of you.)

I've never yet watched season 5, because the person who was showing me the whole thing said it wasn't good enough to bother with right away, and then I broke up with him anyway and didn't have access to the episodes. I suppose I'll get to it this time around, if only to keep up with the rewatch discussions.

And, peripherally on the matter of quotes taken from context... Juvenal is terribly, horribly quotable. And especially in his earlier satires, all of his speakers are terrible, horrible people, saying such catchy things. It was quite the shock, reading through 'em the first time, to keep coming across familiar and comfortable lines in the mouths of slimy bastards and sneering villains and whiny hypocrites.

It's your name. You spell it however you like. Ivanova's name, however, is another matter.

...Much less invoking "methinks (s)he doth protest too much"... without remembering that it came from Iago trying to frame Desdemona!

No, Hamlet about Gertrude (his mother).

(I always wanted to be a heretic.)

*

(ie, I'm afraid I've forgotten that closed door so comprehensively I don't know what you're talking about. Can somebody please explain?)

Though if they're a rock band I like Garibaldi for drums and G'Kar for keys. Lennier would be the kind of introverted lead guitarist who pulls amazing solos out of nowhere while playing with his head down, out of the spotlights.

Delenn as the soulful lead singer who doesn't actually sing, but just emotes. Sheridan, while not with the band, crowd surfs with abandon. Lorien's handling the laser show.

Kosh is the amp.

Lennier on synthesizer. Just holding down one key, but the other hand is sliding so many slides and turning so many knobs that the music is magical.

Zack and Zathras are the roadies.

Sinclair is on the sound board. He makes tiny adjustments in between minute-long pauses wherein he seems to be sniffing the music. His changes are undetectable.

Ivanova is security. She doesn't move, or need to. She just stands and stares at the front row.

Morden's selling drugs to kids in the parking lot.

And I like Sinclair. Calm and benevolent mentor dudes are easy to like, like puppies.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0qaye/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fred_allen.jpg

He was also known as a devout Catholic, a devoted family man and the ideal boss.

"'e's not the Messiah, 'e's The One!"

Besides, when you are being audited, and especially when you are being audited by a telepath, the last thing you want is feelings of doubt.

I am so glad that's not an option for the IRS :-)

Anyway.

Having heard from several people, here and elsewhere over the years, that season 5 was a letdown after the high quality of seaons 3-4, I was pleasantly surprised at how good it was. There were minor annoying elements in the Byron/Lyta story, but even the worst episodes of season 5 were IMO considerably better than the average level of season 1 -- maybe better than average for season 2, as well -- and I'd rank not only "Day of the Dead" and the finale, but most of the episodes in the Centauri Prime sequence, as among the best of the whole series.

It probably helps that G'Kar is by far my favorite character in the show, and I like the way he continues to develop in season 5.