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      <title>Making Light :: Open thread 8 :: comments</title>
      <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#comments </link>
      <description>Language, fraud, folly, truth, history, and knitting. Et cetera.</description>
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      <lastBuildDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:30:10 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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      <title>Open thread 8</title>
      <description>The dogs bark, but the conversation moves on....</description>
      <content:encoded>The dogs bark, but the conversation moves on....</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #1 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The Tard Blog" is excruciating, and excruciatingly funny. An elementary school version of the Arcata Eye Police Blotter.</p>

<p>Augusta. Ohhh, man. I can picture him growing up and going to conventions, probably dressed in a hermetically sealed furry costume.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  5:30 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:30:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #2 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Augusta's young. I suspect his weird neurochemistry is going to either get better or a lot worse.</p>

<p>The Tard Blog shocked me for a while, but then I started laughing. Even if I hadn't started laughing, I don't have the street credibility to call down a Special Ed. teacher, especially when so many of the positive responses in her lettercol are from other Special Ed. teachers. I just know which end of the gun the bullets come out of. Those guys are combat veterans.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  5:44 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:44:19 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #3 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Augusta doesn't end up sorting recyclables for $.50 an hour and annoying people at bus stops, he could end up inventing the hyperdrive (and annoying physicists by stealing lunches from the fridge at the Brookhaven employee break room).</p>

<p>Combat veterans indeed, of many campaigns. The sheer variety of screw-uppedness amoungst those kids is intriguing and harrowing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  5:58 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:58:46 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #4 from catie murphy</title>
         <description>comment from catie murphy on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tard Blog is really sort of extremely startling.  I did the same thing you did, Teresa; I sort of cringed in shock and then began laughing.  The story that really undid me was the suicidal mother.</p>

<p>I've got a girlfriend who's a special ed teacher and I just sent her to go look at the blog.  I'll be interested to see what she has to say about it.</p>

<p>On a completely different note, there's a cute picture (although low quality; my camera battery was dying) of you and Patrick at Writer's Weekend over <a href="http://www.writersweekend.com/gallery/WritersWeekend2003/Writer_s_Weekend_2003_043" rel="nofollow">here</a> and if you positively loathe having pictures of yourself posted on the net, let me know and I'll take 'em down.  :)</p>

<p>-Catie</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  7:13 PM by catie murphy&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:13:56 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #5 from Jon Meltzer</title>
         <description>comment from Jon Meltzer on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect J. Daniel Scruggs' teachers would find the Tard Blog extremely funny. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  7:23 PM by Jon Meltzer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:23:18 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #6 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Compleat Diagram of Strange Persons seems a cross between a relationship diagram of fetishes I saw earlier in the year (perhaps on bOING-bOING?) and Jore Sjoberg's snarky but insightful Geek Hierarchy: http://brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  7:55 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:55:15 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #7 from adamsj</title>
         <description>comment from adamsj on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A sig line sent to me from COPYEDITING-L:</p>

<p>First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing because verbing weirds language.<br />
Then they arrival for the nouns, and I speech nothing because I no verbs.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  8:03 PM by adamsj&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:03:28 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #8 from Robert L</title>
         <description>comment from Robert L on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Observer's list of best 100 novels is even more eccentric than the Modern Library's marketing department's list. I've read 34 of them in their entirety, substantial portions of 6 others, but very few of the recent ones. In fact, this is the first I've heard of a number of them--whereas I'd at least heard of <i>all</i> the ML list. Who came up with this one?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  8:29 PM by Robert L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:29:34 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #9 from adamsj</title>
         <description>comment from adamsj on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dunno--but I had several reactions.</p>

<p>Not <i>Moby-Dick</i>, but <i>The Confidence Man</i>.<br />
Not <i>On the Road</i>, but <i>Visions of Cody</i>.<br />
Not <i>The Big Sleep</i>, but <i>The Long Goodbye</i>. (I'd argue this any time, any place.)<br />
Not <i>The Executioner's Song</i> (which is not even a novel), but <i>Harlot's Ghost</i>.</p>

<p>Also:</p>

<p>WTF (W for Where, as in "W was W when wingmen were waiting? aWol?) were Thomas Pynchon and my pick for best 20th century novel in English, Ken Kesey's <i>Sometimes a Great Notion</i>?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  8:38 PM by adamsj&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:38:26 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #10 from Mary Kay</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Kay on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, do you suppose Friberg looked at Frazetta or was it the other way around.  I kept being struck by the Frazetta like poses and mighty thews.</p>

<p>MKK</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  9:13 PM by Mary Kay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:13:12 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #11 from adamsj</title>
         <description>comment from adamsj on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what? I'm an il-frickin-literate. It's <i>The Confidence<b>-</b>Man</i>. More fully, <i>The Confidence-Man: His Masquerade</i>. It was looking over my shoulder as I wrote that, too.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003  9:18 PM by adamsj&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:18:48 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #12 from Paul Hoffman</title>
         <description>comment from Paul Hoffman on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being mostly a magazine-reader, I can't talk about the 100-best-novels or the Man Booker prize (why does everyone drop the "Man" part?) or the Nobels. Now, when they have "the best magazine articles of the year" prizes, I often look to see if I read any of them, or if I have any of them laying around unread.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003 10:03 PM by Paul Hoffman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:03:24 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #13 from Erik Nelson</title>
         <description>comment from Erik Nelson on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Compleat Diagram of Strange Persons is not really Compleat. It does not include people who are into cryonics.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003 10:48 PM by Erik Nelson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:48:46 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #14 from Matt McIrvin</title>
         <description>comment from Matt McIrvin on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found myself really embarrassed at how few of those I had read up to about number 20 or so; then then got much more familiar, then unfamiliar again with some exceptions.</p>

<p>So I find that I'm relatively well-read in the literature of about 1830 to 1950, and ignorant about everything else.  I have no idea why that is.  (My personal list would be extremely science-fiction-heavy.)</p>

<p>(There were several authors of whom I had only read, or better liked, other works; I'd have picked different ones for Roth, Calvino and Rushdie.)<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003 10:49 PM by Matt McIrvin&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:49:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #15 from CHip</title>
         <description>comment from CHip on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So did anyone else take the Alchemists' Challenge? I got 80%; kicking myself for a few of "that's too much ]common wisdom[ to be right"<br />
(I got several that were often missed and missed a few that were above-average gotten); I doubt their claim to a guaranteed correct answer on one and am sure of a typo in another. (Why yes, I'm good at lame excuses....) But there were some fascinating tidbits to learn from my misses. I expect some people on this list will do better; I did well on the synonym/antonym list T found a year ago, but I was brought up by language people -- this test rewards <b>serious</b> omnivoracity.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003 11:15 PM by CHip&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:15:32 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #16 from Simon</title>
         <description>comment from Simon on 17.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add to The Compleat Diagram of Strange Persons: the persons who responded to The Compleat Diagram of Strange Persons by correcting what they perceived as the mis-spelling of "Complete".</p>

<p>Or, at least they should go on The Compleat Diagram of Persons Who Should Not Be Copy-Editors.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 17, 2003 11:46 PM by Simon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:46:32 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #17 from Simon</title>
         <description>comment from Simon on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Following CHip's suggestion, I took the Alchemist's Challenge.  A good quiz, mostly; damnably hard to guess on.  You either know the things or you don't.  Fortunately I knew most.</p>

<p>But there's one question they're dead wrong on.  The origin of O.K. was definitely established a long time ago.  Or so says <a href="http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_250.html" rel="nofollow">Cecil Adams</a>, and I trust Cecil.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 12:18 AM by Simon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:18:32 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #18 from davey</title>
         <description>comment from davey on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teresa, please don't call down the Tard Blog folks; that site's a homecoming to a place I haven't lived in for a couple of decades (but have now bookmarked so I can stop by every now and then).  It's just that the blog entries are the redaction: being presented as incidents, stripped of their everyday everyone-back-on-your-hands context, shades them with a callousness that isn't in the classroom. It really is comrade humor, with subtext.</p>

<p>[Relevant background: I have a B.S.Ed from Millersville University, dual-certification Elementary Ed K-6 and Special Ed K-12, SpEd concentration on teaching the emotionally disturbed; and a program focus on educating in inner-city schools. I was a classroom SpEd teacher in residential schools every summer from age 16-20, and my combined majors program meant I was also in a classroom 4-10 hours/week every semester except first freshman (none) and final senior (two 8-week school practicum assignments, no on-campus classes at all). The Tard Blog entries are entirely familiar. That I didn't make my career in classroom teaching was a fall of the job-market dice when I graduated.]</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 12:50 AM by davey&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:50:44 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #19 from Steve Taylor</title>
         <description>comment from Steve Taylor on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ALDAILY ADICTION:</p>

<p>Help! I've become dependent on aldaily.com as a source of interesting articles (about 40% of what they link to), but I can't read it without grinding my teeth at the remaining 60% - all those endless chip on the shoulder rants about the inferiority of Islam, the French, modern art, and all socialists except George Orwell.</p>

<p>Is there anything out there which is an equally enticing roundup of news and reviews without being quite so constipated?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  2:09 AM by Steve Taylor&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 02:09:38 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #20 from Mary Kay</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Kay on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link to the roccoco clothing.  Gosh those are cool; they just don't make 'em like that any more.  And don't you wish men's clothes were that colorful and interesting now?</p>

<p>Oh, and by the way, the first link just links back to Making Light.</p>

<p>MKK</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  3:03 AM by Mary Kay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 03:03:25 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #21 from Robert L</title>
         <description>comment from Robert L on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>adamsj, with all due respect, you gotta be kidding. I've tried to read <i>The Confidence-Man,</i> and it's not without its amusements. Maybe someday, when I have a <i>lot</i> of free time, I'll try to finish it. I found it extremely  difficult and way too mannered for my taste. And as Teresa can tell you, I'm a big fan of Proust, and I thought <i>Nostromo</i> (which is deservedly on their list) pretty easy going, even though I'd often heard how dense it was. To choose TC-M over <i>Moby-Dick,</i> which many regard as <i>the</i> great American novel? I feel similarly, though not so strongly, about <i>Visions of Cody,</i> though of course all of Kerouac is really one giant opus. Somehow, <i>On the Road</i> is a lot more of a coherent narrative. Or maybe you just have a taste for big, rough books?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  3:10 AM by Robert L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 03:10:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #22 from Christina Schulman</title>
         <description>comment from Christina Schulman on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Alchemist's Challenge seems to be an extended session of the Dictionary Game.  These are the rules of Dictionary, as taught to me by the formidable Phil Klass (errors are due to brain atrophy on my part):</p>

<p>1. You need paper, pens, and a nice big dictionary.</p>

<p>2. One person in the group (a group of 4-8 people works best) looks through the dictionary for an obscure word that no one in the group recognizes.  That person announces the word to the group, and copies the actual dictionary definition (only one, if there are multiple definitions) onto a sheet of paper.</p>

<p>3. All the other players make up false definitions for that word, and write them down.  The more plausible-sounding, the better, but they should be false.</p>

<p>4. The word-picker then reads all of the definitions aloud once, then goes back through them, allowing each player to vote for the definition he or she thinks is correct.</p>

<p>5. If you vote for the correct definition, you get a point.  If someone votes for your false definition, you get a point.  If you picked the word and no one guesses correctly, you get a point.</p>

<p>6. I've always wondered, why is there no rule 6?</p>

<p>7. The game is over when each person has had a turn picking a word.  Whoever has the most points wins.</p>

<p>8. Don't play against Phil Klass.  He lies more skillfully than you do.  So does Fruma Klass.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  4:58 AM by Christina Schulman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 04:58:44 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #23 from Kathryn Cramer</title>
         <description>comment from Kathryn Cramer on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My reaction to the tard blog as a parent is that these folks ought to be fired.</p>

<p>Also, it confirms my general feeling that although receiving free services through the school district is nice, private services are preferable, because the providers always know who's paying them.</p>

<p>Why the authors of the blog feel this way is certanly understandable, but think about it: if your doctor had a blog and wrote about you that way, you would feel this was a serious violation of your privacy and want him fired or his license suspended or some such.  There is a basic level of human respect missing from the tard blog indicating to me that the authors need to seek another line of work. While I'm willing to entertain the idea that the authors behave much better on the job, I do not just take their word for it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  6:19 AM by Kathryn Cramer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 06:19:24 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #24 from Steve Taylor</title>
         <description>comment from Steve Taylor on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>> There is a basic level of human respect missing<br />
> from the tard blog indicating to me that the<br />
> authors need to seek another line of work. <br />
> While I'm willing to entertain the idea that the<br />
> authors behave much better on the job, I do not<br />
> just take their word for it.</p>

<p>It puts me very much in mind of nurses humour I've encountered. People in mind wrenchingly stressful jobs end up having very bent senses of humour. I didn't get a bad feeling from what I read.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  8:19 AM by Steve Taylor&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:19:14 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #25 from CHip</title>
         <description>comment from CHip on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christina: playing against the Klasses sounds like it could be interesting; I used to think of "Dictionary" as mostly a game played at Mensa meetings. (Yes, for a couple of years. I was a classic D&D mage: high test scores, low wisdom and charisma.) RISFA invented a variation in which the object was to come up with the most outrageous plausible definition (ex: bulvalene, "a drink made from ground-up watches, similar to Ovaltine"); you wouldn't believe some of the things people do with mice in their pockets.</p>

<p>"No rule #6" may have a fannish connection; it was well-established at the MITSFS 30 years ago, and I doubt it started there. Somebody should track it down.... (OTOH, somebody at the NESFA table in the Torcon dealers room was looking for the \specific/ Eric Frank Russell story they had been told was the earliest known cite for the alleged Chinese curse. Do I believe that?)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  8:33 AM by CHip&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:33:26 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #26 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monty Python!  It's from the Australian Philosophy Department sketch.  All the odd-numbered rules are "No poofters!" or however you spell that in Oz...obviously written by people who've never been to Sydney (from what I hear).</p>

<p>The absense of Rule 6 is funny in itself, but also a device to get in two more shouts of "No poofters!"</p>

<p>If there's a "There is no Rule 6" that predates that sketch, I'd be very interested to hear it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  9:47 AM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:47:08 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #27 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's a published game, obviously derived, where the Reader gives the beginning of a strange proverb, and the writers complete it.  It's called "Wise and Otherwise."</p>

<p>Example, pulling one at random out of the box: Old Korean saying, "A monk cannot..."</p>

<p>I was going to give the answer, but I want to see what people come up with.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  9:51 AM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:51:09 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #28 from adamsj</title>
         <description>comment from adamsj on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Robert,</p>

<p>Maybe I do have that sort of taste.</p>

<p>I go around and around with Kerouac. In a heads-up comparison, I go with <i>Visions</i> over <i>Road</i> for just the reason you give: <i>Visions</i> is not a coherent narrative, but a big splash of Kerouac's brain. It's a rewrite of <i>Road</i> as Kerouac got full control (in an esthetic that denigrated control) of his style. A truer vision, for better or worse.</p>

<p>Other days, I'll tell you that <i>Maggie Cassidy</i> or <i>Doctor Sax</i> is his best--they are certainly his sweetest (except <i>Pic</i>, which is a little too sweet). Maybe it's <i>Big Sur</i>--I say that because I've never been able to finish that little book. The pain which wafts off it is just too much--strong stuff. <i>Lonesome Traveler</i> is not a novel, or even fiction, so.</p>

<p>But I go back to <i>Visions</i> for a variety of reasons.</p>

<p>Perhaps it's the conditions under which I read it, hitchhiking to my rendezvous with a schoolbus full of crazy political hippies that I'd hopped on in Kansas City on my way to San Fran. (I dreamed about some of that crowd last night, one of them telling another that I was still trustworthy.) I finished it in Boulder, as the 25th anniversary party for <i>Road</i> was on at Naropa.</p>

<p>I'd just written my first piece of paid writing, a long, text-heavy review of King Crimson's <i>Beat</i>, and was crazy for that period of literature. I was living in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and was yet to meet (but had read!) John Clellon Holmes, who became one of my two great teachers there. His influence on me was decisive; from him I received this opinion, later.</p>

<p>It's John who made us study the forebears of the Beats, which to his mind were Blake and Baudelaire and Rimbaud, yes, but Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Melville, Dickinson, Whitman, Twain, James, Pound, and Lawrence--American writers all (if in Lawrence's case by choice and circumstance), and mostly writers who struggled in their idea of the American character.</p>

<p>The Melville which the Beats (the New York Beats--a different breed of cat than the San Fran Beats) particularly loved was that of <i>Pierre</i> and poetry. (To this day, I repeat as my own John's opinion that the best poetry about the Civil War was Melville's and that the best prose was Whitman's <i>Specimen Days</i>--it makes such a tidy balance!)</p>

<p><i>Pierre</i> was too dark even for me (and I read it under even odder circumstances--when I finished it, the best reading at hand was a David Morrell action-thriller)--thus <i>The Confidence-Man</i>. I read it twice, but years ago--I believe I read it and <i>Moby-Dick</i> once in the same week back in San Fran (those damned hippies again). I made my opinion then--perhaps I should revisit it.</p>

<p>A long answer--perhaps, as you suggested, I have a taste for big, rough writing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  9:52 AM by adamsj&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #29 from Jon Meltzer</title>
         <description>comment from Jon Meltzer on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>> There is a basic level of human respect missing<br />
> from the tard blog indicating to me that the<br />
> authors need to seek another line of work. </p>

<p>I found the reference to "a couple of homos" in the "Augusta" story just, well, utterly charming. </p>

<p>"No poofters!" </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 10:54 AM by Jon Meltzer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #30 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don't take the picture down, Catie. That <i>is</i> cute. Especially Patrick.</p>

<p>Jon Meltzer, I suspect that J. Daniel Scruggs would have done a lot better if he'd had teachers as mindful, caring, observant, and committed to his well-being as Sarah Hammon -- or, even more so, Riti Sped. </p>

<p>Check out how closely Riti monitors her students, and knows each one in detail on a minute-by-minute basis. She doesn't just cope with their weirder behaviors; she understands them, and gets in as much teaching as they'll hold still for. She sees past the gaudy behavior to the kid inside. See <a href="http://tardblog.com/sa/1-17.htm" rel="nofollow">Guest Contributor: What it's like in RIti's class</a>, or <a href="http://tardblog.com/sa/1-21.htm" rel="nofollow">Sub is not welcomed</a> for particularly clear examples.</p>

<p>Notice also how many of the stories about Tyler and Tyrell are about Riti being there for the kids during non-school hours.</p>

<p>I suspect that what shocks a lot of people about RIti's accounts of her days is that not just her humorous treatment of the subject. It's also that she doesn't like all her students equally, and occasionally retaliates for particularly bad behavior, or takes sides in fights, or privately applauds what she sees as the operations of justice. She makes judgements. She has preferences.</p>

<p>I like her for that. It means she's reacting to these kids like a human being dealing with human beings. </p>

<p>Which would you rather have happen when you're not around: Your family and friends occasionally making jokes at your expense, as families and friends will do? Or, when someone starts to make such a joke, to have all the others shush them in that sweet, mournful, over-serious way and say "Oh, no -- you <i>mustn't</i> make <i>fun</i> of him."</p>

<p>Robert, I don't know who came up with the Observer's list. Perhaps it was Robert McCrum, who's linked-to at the end. I think it has to be the work of a small number of people, or possibly only one, because it has remarks in it like "wrongly overlooked".</p>

<p> I thought some of its choices were seriously weird, and many of its descriptions were flippant and shallow. (I was nonplussed by its citation of  James Ellroy's <i>La Confidential</i>, but that might have been a typo.) It gestures vaguely in the direction of SF by including <i>1984</i>, justly, and <i>Brave New World</i>, which hasn't held up nearly as well -- but mentions nothing else in the genre.</p>

<p>It seemed to me that a lot of its choices were deliberately contrarian, like citing Hemingway's <i>Men Without Women</i> -- which isn't even a novel. And if he's going to throw in thrillers, where for pete's sake is Dashiell Hammett? I'll stack up <i>Red Harvest</i> against any other detective novel you could name.</p>

<p>I think the compiler must be male. Otherwise he'd have listed <i>Cold Comfort Farm</i> or <i>I Capture the Castle</i>, possibly both.</p>

<p>Adamsj, I'll agree with you on <i>The Long Goodbye</i> vs. <i>The Big Sleep</i>. And stop flagellating yourself for leaving the hyphen and subtitle out of <i>The Confidence-Man: His Masquerade</i>. The Observer's list mangled a lot more titles than that.</p>

<p>Mary Kay, I don't know the dates, but I remember looking at the Friberg illustrations in the Book of Mormon when I was a little kid suffering through long church meetings. What's going on is that he and Frazetta were both working out of the same narrative tradition in art. That sort of thing fell thoroughly out of fashion in the Twentieth Century, so unless you go looking, you only see examples when it's pertinent to a particular subject. For example, you only see Jacques-Louis David's drawings and paintings of contemporary subjects if they're being used to illustrate some point about the French Revolution or the Napoleonic era. They're not looked at for their own sake. It's a pity; for several centuries there, artists produced a lot of cool narrative art.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 11:03 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #31 from adamsj</title>
         <description>comment from adamsj on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mmm...<i>The Long Goodbye</i> versus <i>Red Harvest</i>. The betrayal of something humane and decent versus the absence of anything humane and decent. That's a hard one.</p>

<p>About that damned hyphen--I used to be the best proofreader in the county. It was a small county.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 12:16 PM by adamsj&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:16:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #32 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back again. My computer's being a little tetchy, so I thought I'd get that one safely posted and continue on in a separate message.</p>

<p>Erik Nelson, where do people who are into cryonics fit into that chart?</p>

<p>Chip, I took the Alchemist's Challenge. I think I should have gotten credit on "OK"; which is to say, I disagree with his answer. I was embarrassed to have missed the one about the Fuller Building, aka the Flatiron Building. My first impulse was to answer that it's the oldest surviving skyscraper in NYC, but then I talked myself into a different answer. Shouldn't have done that.</p>

<p>I love that test, and have mentioned it before in my weblog, a long while back. It's a work of art. Look at the first question: <blockquote><i> Dido is:<p>A machine used to cut ornate moldings in wood.<p>An extinct flightless bird once living on the island of Mauritius.<p>A sex toy.<p>The queen of Carthage and the spurned lover of Aeneas.<p>A group of early twentieth-century artists who used accidental and incongruous elements in their work.<p> An accomplished female classical singer.</p></p></p></p></p></p></i></blockquote>The correct answer is that Dido was the Queen of Carthage; but the things described in the wrong answers are dado, dodo, dildo, Dada, and diva. The selection of possible answers for question #14, about the meaning of antidisestablishmentarianism, is simply beautiful.</p>

<p>Davey, I wouldn't call it down in any event. I have a great many teachers in my family, at least one of whom taught Special Ed. The rant of hers that comes to mind was on that perennial subject, parents who have unreasonable expectations regarding the curriculum -- in this case, parents who thought the Special Ed. program should be doing more to teach their children how to clean themselves properly after using the bathroom. The rant ended: "There's a lot I'm willing to do, but if these people can't teach their own children how to wipe their butts, I'm <i>not</i> going to do it for them."</p>

<p>I have great respect for Special Ed. teachers. I could never do their job.</p>

<p>Steve, what's enticing to one person is dreary to another, so I'm not sure I can help you there. If anyone else has a suggestion, they should speak up.</p>

<p>Mary Kay, thanks for the heads-up on the Rokoko link. Its date had gotten mis-set as well, so now I've fixed both problems. Did you notice that they also have pages on other periods? They list as <i>Mittelalter, Renaissance, Barock, Rokoko, Empire, Biedermeier, Grfcnderzeit,</i> and <i>Bellea0Epoque</i> what we would call Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Rococo, Regency, Romantic or Early Victorian, Later Victorian, and finally either Edwardian, Belle Epoque, or (lately) "like <i>Titanic</i>".</p>

<p>I liked that blue riding habit, myself. What a great period for cross-dressing that must have been.</p>

<p>Kathryn, I don't think the Tard Blog is nearly as disrespectful as you do. And I <i>strongly</i> disagree about private services being preferable. What we need are better public services. Did you notice how many of those students' families couldn't afford a thing, and how many of them were sufficiently dysfunctional that without the day-in-day-out program at school, the kids would never have gotten the consistent attention to their problems that they so desperately need?</p>

<p>Funding public schools is always a good idea. </p>

<p>Christopher; A monk cannot give the bride away?</p>

<p>Adamsj, I'd know you for a proofreader anywhere. Who else would wail that they were semi-literate because they'd left a hyphen out of a book title?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 12:41 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #33 from Tom Whitmore</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Whitmore on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>of the barking dogs, only one in three?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 12:50 PM by Tom Whitmore&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:50:46 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #34 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"A monk cannot."</p>

<p>Seems like a complete statement to me.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  2:03 PM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:03:06 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #35 from Tom Becker</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Becker on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on." An old Arabic or Turkish saying. Google has 1,170 references to it. </p>

<p>Tom Russell used this line in the chorus of one of his recent songs. If you're not familiar with him, he's one of the finest literary singer-songwriters out there. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.tomrussell.com/brutal.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.tomrussell.com/brutal.html</a></p>

<p>Tom Russell is a man who attracts coincidences. I think it's because he's never done one thing or been in one place for very long. The big break that got him back into songwriting was when he was driving cab in New York, picked up Robert Hunter as a passenger, sang <i>Gallo del Cielo</i>, and got a gig opening for him the next night. This is the song he wrote in the garage of his house in Mountain View, a few blocks away from me. For that coincidence to happen, Tom had to have his marriage end, leave his family, move to New York, drive cab, and not sell any novels. So I'm really not recommending this as a career approach that anyone should attempt to follow. Just listen to his songs. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  2:41 PM by Tom Becker&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #36 from Isabeau</title>
         <description>comment from Isabeau on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is not whether the writers of Tard Blog are good teachers, but whether they should be telling tales out of school.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  2:48 PM by Isabeau&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:48:19 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #37 from adamsj</title>
         <description>comment from adamsj on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love recasts of old sayings, and here's one of my favorites:</p>

<p>"The gypsy's on the move, but the caravan remains."</p>

<p>"Pretty Thing", from <i>Smile</i>, by <a href="http://www.thejayhawks.net/" rel="nofollow">The Jayhawks</a>. A lot of their fans don't like <i>Smile</i>; I like it a lot.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  2:53 PM by adamsj&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #38 from LauraJMixon</title>
         <description>comment from LauraJMixon on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tard Blog reminds me a bit of the best and most disturbing aspects of M*A*S*H, and other stories in which people use gallows humor to deflect the severe stress of their jobs.  </p>

<p>I have a friend who was an EMT, a friend who worked with OxFAM (an NGO that provides food assistance in the 3rd World), and an ex-BOL who was a cop, and some of their jokes were pretty dark stuff.  It goes with the territory.</p>

<p>I find context is critically important.  I give people in the trenches, dealing daily with others' suffering, a lot more leeway than people on the sidelines who would make such jokes.</p>

<p>Whether it's wise for them to put it on the web is a whole nother story, because the kids' parents may well be offended, and they could lose their jobs over it.  Speaking of which, it'd make a great book or movie.</p>

<p><br />
-l.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  3:15 PM by LauraJMixon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:15:53 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #39 from adamsj</title>
         <description>comment from adamsj on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm assuming they go to some trouble not to make the students individually identifiable. Given that assumption, I'm not seeing how the privacy issue is all that different from writing up a case study.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  3:18 PM by adamsj&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:18:28 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #40 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isabeau, it hadn't occurred to me that they might be using their students' real names. I hope they know better than that.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  5:15 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:15:02 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #41 from Kathryn Cramer</title>
         <description>comment from Kathryn Cramer on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And I strongly disagree about private services being preferable. What we need are better public services</i></p>

<p>I was speaking from a personal rather than policy perspective. Of course we need better public services. But I suspect the quality of services is higher (a) if I pay, and (b) if I watch.  This is not a hypothetical preference, but one drawn from experience.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I have just dropped all private services in favor of public ones. The drain on both our finances and my time was substantial.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003  6:55 PM by Kathryn Cramer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:55:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #42 from Sarah</title>
         <description>comment from Sarah on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holy cow, davey.</p>

<p>I grew up across the street (almost literally) from Millersville University. (It was Millersville State College then. My dad was a sociology professor there.) </p>

<p>Random comment. Small world.  You probably won't see this, but I had to post.</p>

<p>-Sarah</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 10:05 PM by Sarah&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #43 from davey</title>
         <description>comment from davey on 18.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Small world indeed, Sarah! It was MSC when I graduated, too. I still skim the <i>Review</i> every quarter, but my professors have all retired and I haven't much in common with my former classmates; I've only been back once since I left and even that was forever ago. I have a memory box in the basement somewhere, though...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 18, 2003 11:41 PM by davey&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2003 23:41:17 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #44 from David Goldfarb</title>
         <description>comment from David Goldfarb on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I scored 78% on the Alchemist's Challenge...</p>

<p>I agree with Teresa completely:  it's a work of art.  I used to do the daily quizzes at www.chatgames.com, and I tried my hand at writing some.  Coming up with decent trivia questions is fairly easy, but coming up with <i>three plausible wrong answers</i> for each one is hard!  </p>

<p>The one I think I'm proudest of was on a quiz about Robert Heinlein:</p>

<p>This non-SF book about a round-the-world trip was not published until after Heinlein's death.</p>

<p>a) Stranger in a Strange Land<br />
b) Tramp Royale<br />
c) Glory Road<br />
d) To Sail Beyond the Sunset</p>

<p>,,,but I digress.  My point is that the <i>wrong</i> answers on the Alchemist's Challenge quiz are really nicely done.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003  1:57 AM by David Goldfarb&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:57:56 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #45 from Tom Whitmore</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Whitmore on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But David, that's just too obvious an answer on the Heinlein -- only one is posthumous....</p>

<p>You beat me out. I got 74%, from too many wrong guesses on a 50% chance. It's a lovely, lovely quiz.</p>

<p>And for all who pointed out the actual reference to the header on this thread, I still like the Thurber offshoot. Not that many of us wear velvet gowns (tho TNH would be seriously fetching in same!). ((And yes, I do believe it's important to compliment the host betimes, especially when one can do so without stretching the truth.))</p>

<p>Cheers,<br />
Tom</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003  2:39 AM by Tom Whitmore&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 02:39:57 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #46 from Anonymous</title>
         <description>comment from Anonymous on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My son was designated a special ed student last June. He has some vaguely defined (and I hope) minor neurological issue which causes motor skill problems and some problems also with impulse control. The behavioral issue seems to respond beautifully to medication he was put on last summer. The motor issues are a longer term thing.</p>

<p>He is a very bright little boy and is nothing like the  kids in the Tard blog. But I have met and deal with a lot of special ed folk. As of September, I dropped his private occupational therapy, physical therapy, and Jungian sand tray psychotherapy (cool stuff; every time I went into that woman's office, I wanted to be the patient), and am letting the school take over that end of things, but I am keeping close tabs on them. So far, it's working wonderfully. He's off to a great start in 1st grade.</p>

<p>Instead, I'm replacing the services with strategically selected fun activities. Interestingly, I have found the yoga teacher for my son that is the one all the really hardcore special ed people use. She teaches a Special Needs yoga class for kids. This is the non-special needs class. The kids in the class mostly have some issue but are relatively normal, but several have siblings who are severely disabled or retarded. (One has an older sibling who died of her disability; another has a severely retarded twin brother who waits with the parents and the babies in the waiting room.) The waiting room functions as a kind of ad hoc Special Ed parents support group. One of the dads, the one whose daughter died, is also a Special Ed teacher and is very eager to give helpful advice.</p>

<p>While I have seen the Clinical Detachment model of coping with Special Needs kids deployed (a couple of faces immediately come to mind), there seem to be other responses. It is not like surgery. Cutting into someone  to help them is inherently an unnatural psychological situation. Relating to Special Needs kids need not be. There are other ways.</p>

<p>Parents of Special Needs kids frequently encounter people of the Clinical Detachment persuasion, people who cause a lot of unnecessary grief because maintaining their detachment is so important to them. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003  6:09 AM by Anonymous&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 06:09:28 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #47 from Patrick Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Patrick Nielsen Hayden on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely sympathize.  But it doesn't seem to me that the kind of discourse found in the Tard Blog is about "clinical detachment" at all.</p>

<p>Quite the contrary, I've known several people in high-stress, emotionally-exhausting jobs like this, and the ones who talk like this when they're away from the people they provide help to are the ones who are <i>least</i> detached from their jobs, their obligations, the full emotional gravity of it.</p>

<p>I think some folks keep seeing the Tard Blog's tone as evidence that its authors are cynical, walled-off, and uncaring.  I see it as exactly the opposite.  The EMTs I've known <i>all</i> talk like this about their jobs, if you give them half a chance.  But they wouldn't talk like this to the people whose lives they're trying to save, or to their friends or relatives.  </p>

<p>There are indeed "care providers" who are way to "clinically detached" to do a good and humane job.  I really believe that's a different set of people.  (I'm willing to believe that there's some small overlap between the sets.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003 10:19 AM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 10:19:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #48 from Dan Layman-Kennedy</title>
         <description>comment from Dan Layman-Kennedy on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>>Tom Russell is a man who attracts coincidences. ... Just listen to his songs. </p>

<p>And if you begin to suspect you're a character in one, try and get the hell out before the first chorus. The situation will <i>not</i> improve.  :)<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003  2:05 PM by Dan Layman-Kennedy&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:05:48 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #49 from Erik Nelson</title>
         <description>comment from Erik Nelson on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE the Tapir camera</p>

<p>If the picture is zappenduster, it's night and the tapir is sleeping.</p>

<p>What does "Zappenduster mean?' I tried Babelfishing and that didn't help me but it did tell me the following. (But Babelfish is quirky; I tried translating Poe's Raven, and it turned a volume of forgotten lore into a forgotten truck-pond.)</p>

<p>"If this picture is more zappenduster, it is much because of the fact that night is and the TAP Irish sleeps.</p>

<p> Two T/plate rack TAP Irish the Aria and Jinak are patent from Christine and Goetz.  Even if they have trouble still thereby to "aunt" and "uncle" to say, then they are the none ones it so far nevertheless created durable members of the group house to become."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003  9:29 PM by Erik Nelson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:29:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #50 from Isabeau</title>
         <description>comment from Isabeau on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teresa, even if they did change the names, how could you disguise someone as distinctive as Augusta?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003  9:35 PM by Isabeau&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:35:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #51 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hm. You have a point. There are other kids with sufficiently similar disorders that a description of his symptoms wouldn't be enough to identify him, but there can't be a lot of them whose parents are German immigrants.</p>

<p>I don't know. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. Maybe she's fibbing about the German immigrant parents (a circumstance which doesn't affect the story either way). Maybe she's being irresponsible. I can't tell from here.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003 10:13 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:13:32 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #52 from Tom Whitmore</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Whitmore on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isabeau -- I bet there are at least 6 people in the country who would fit Augusta's profile, from the information contained in that blog. I'd bet that, and back it with money. </p>

<p>If you can determine exactly who s/he is, from the information given, I'll pay you $100. And I'm glad to have THN, or PNH, or any reliable third party (agreed on by both of us) adjudicate whether you've actually determined his/her identity. And I'll bet another $25 that someone with more money than I have would cover that bet, and give you a higher stake. </p>

<p>Going from case history to person is very difficult. </p>

<p>Cheers,<br />
Tom</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003 10:15 PM by Tom Whitmore&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:15:42 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #53 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on 19.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erik, I have no idea what a zappenduster is, and the rest of that fishmeal is as incoherent a translation as I've ever seen from Babelfish, but I assure you that watching the mother tapir and her offspring this morning was extremely cool.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 19, 2003 10:20 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:20:17 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #54 from Sylvia Li</title>
         <description>comment from Sylvia Li on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Zappenduster</i>. I thought I'd try to sneak up on the meaning via Google and then Translate This Page. So far I've found out:</p>

<p>1. It is definitely a German word (3,170 hits), and Translate has no clue what it means, so it's likely slang.</p>

<p>2. It appears most often in association with reports of <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/sport/aktuell/2003/09/30/stuttgart/stuttgart1,templateId%3DrenderKomplett.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dzappenduster%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG" rel="nofollow">soccer </a> <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/sport/aktuell/2003/10/02/zappenduster__tor/zeitlupentor,templateId%3DrenderKomplett.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dzappenduster%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG" rel="nofollow">games</a>, most often only in the headline. </p>

<p>3. Whatever it is, it's not glorious news; it's associated with <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.hvbg.de/d/pages/presse/pbilder/pbild99/bildsch.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dzappenduster%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG" rel="nofollow">computer failures</a>, <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.welt.de/data/2003/09/28/175020.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dzappenduster%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG" rel="nofollow">power outages</a>, and <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.nadir.org/nadir/periodika/jungle_world/_99/32/24b.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dzappenduster%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG" rel="nofollow">Nostradamus prophecies</a>.</p>

<p>4. On the other hand, it can't be all that bad, since it's the name of a <a href="http://daylilies.plantsdatabase.com/go/18262/" rel="nofollow">daylily cultivar</a>, someone's <a href="http://www.vidomi.com/user.php?op=userinfo&uname=zappenduster" rel="nofollow">net handle</a>, and what appears to be a <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.scheissband.com/gallerie/pics03/imagepages/image26.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dzappenduster%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN" rel="nofollow">rock group</a>.</p>

<p>5. Ah. Finally, what looks like a <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.ruhrgebietssprache.de/lexikon/zappenduster.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dzappenduster%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN" rel="nofollow">definition</a>.</p>

<p>6. And even a stab at <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.etymologie.info/~e/d_/de-rotwel.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dzappenduster%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN" rel="nofollow">etymology</a>...</p>

<blockquote><b>more zappenduster</b></blockquote>

<blockquote>Recently I read an article over the structure of the eye. Therefore there are zapfenfoermige ' sehzellen, those in the eye ' is responsible for the color perception and ' rod-shaped ' sehzellen, which react only to brightness differences. With darkness the quantity of light is enough no longer for the ' taps ', so that one takes no more colors truely, but evenly only different gray tones.</blockquote>

<blockquote>Therefore it could be more zappenduster ' so dark ' that one can recognize only ' grey '.</blockquote>

<blockquote>This is not ' more zappenduster ' however the etymologische explanation for. But it explains, why ' all cats are grey ' at night.</blockquote>

<blockquote>Another explanation could be that it goes on the ' tap caper ' back. That was the impact of an officer on the tapping cock, in order to indicate to the landlord and the soldier the end of the bar. This might probably have happened always to advanced hour, at least it might have been evenly ' more zappenduster ' already darkly. And there it in earlier times fewer lanterns on the roads gave...</blockquote>

<blockquote>In addition, this explanation is probably too far fetched.</blockquote>

<blockquote>Anyhow the intelligent one means that ' more zappenduster ' probably on rotwelsche ' zofon ' = ' midnight ' back goes. I.e. it is simply ' midnight dark '.</blockquote>

<p>Incidentally, that weird "more zappenduster" construction that keeps showing up? It's an artifact of Babelfish, presumably trying to interpret the -er suffix. On the original German pages, it's just 'zappenduster' all by itself between those quotes.</p>

<p>And, that's about as far as I want to travel tonight.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  1:29 AM by Sylvia Li&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #55 from David Goldfarb</title>
         <description>comment from David Goldfarb on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom:  If you know which of Heinlein's works are posthumous, then yes, that question is a snap -- and I certainly would never put it in a quiz for SF fans.  This, however, was for a quiz about Heinlein on a <i>general-interest</i> trivia site.  As such I think it was pretty good;  you certainly couldn't tell just from the title which was the travel book!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  5:20 AM by David Goldfarb&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 05:20:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #56 from Kathryn Cramer</title>
         <description>comment from Kathryn Cramer on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding concealment of identity, The Tard Blog FAQ says "Everything on this page is absolutely and completely true."</p>

<p>I don't know if we should take this to mean that no names are changed, but I do take it to mean that no other attempts have been made o conceal identity.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  6:52 AM by Kathryn Cramer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #57 from Kathryn Cramer</title>
         <description>comment from Kathryn Cramer on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, I note from poking around that "Riti Sped" has quit teaching Special Ed. So partly, I think this blog is about burnout.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  7:06 AM by Kathryn Cramer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #58 from Eloise Mason</title>
         <description>comment from Eloise Mason on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erik Olson said: <i>The Compleat Diagram of Strange Persons is not really Compleat.</i></p>

<p>You *do* know that 'compleat' and 'complete' do not have identical meanings, don't you, Erik? :-></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  8:51 AM by Eloise Mason&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:51:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #59 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eloise, I know they're different, but I've never been absolutely clear on the meaning of 'compleat'.  I'm far from my dictionary; could you explain?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003 11:37 AM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:37:07 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #60 from Robert L</title>
         <description>comment from Robert L on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>adamsj, I see where you're coming from with Melville and Kerouac, and given your background, it makes a lot of sense. It must have been fascinating to have Clellon Holmes as a teacher--I've only read <i>The Horn,</i> which I'm not entirely fond of, but it's quite interesting and often fun when he isn't preaching. It's a more noble attempt to get at the reality of jazz than (though I love that passage) Kerouac's "Sal, God has arrived" bit with George Shearing (which is probably a better protrayal of a jazz <i>fan.</i>)<br />
  I think my tastes run more to polished complexity--Nabokov is a fave, as are Proust (who is actually in a weird way an ancestor of beat blather as well), Stendhal, Garceda Me1rquez...<br />
  I like Chandler a lot, but I'll take Hammett over him, too.<br />
  Teresa, I noticed "La Confidential" (which took a second when i read it; my first reaction was that it should be "La Confidencial")--this was perhaps Word at work. I'm actually a big fan of Ellroy's, goofy as he is, even if he's sometimes a self-parody. And LAC is one of his best, especially all the McCarthyism they didn't include in the movie (which was about 1/3 of the novel).<br />
  <i>About that damned hyphen--I used to be the best proofreader in the county. It was a small county.</i><br />
  I like to think I'm at least one of the best in my county (my own writing excepted, of course)--but my county is New York Co., i.e., Manhattan, so there's a lot of competition... </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  1:17 PM by Robert L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #61 from Eloise Mason</title>
         <description>comment from Eloise Mason on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xopher says, <i>Eloise, I know they're different, but I've never been absolutely clear on the meaning of 'compleat'. I'm far from my dictionary; could you explain?</i></p>

<p>Dang, I knew someone was going to ask that. Unfortunately, it's been a year or two since I found this out, and I don't remember precisely. I'm absolutely certain someone else who reads Making Light does, though.</p>

<p>(The Great Ghod Ghughle has failed me, his loyal acolyte! He refuses to shine His holy and enlightening gaze down upon me, no matter how carefully I plan my search-term/prayers!)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  2:33 PM by Eloise Mason&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:33:18 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #62 from Dan Layman-Kennedy</title>
         <description>comment from Dan Layman-Kennedy on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/c/c0528400.html" rel="nofollow">yourDictionary.com's listing</a> for "compleat" reads:</p>

<p><i>1. Of or characterized by a highly developed or wide-ranging skill or proficiency. <br />
2. Being an outstanding example of a kind; quintessential.</i></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  2:55 PM by Dan Layman-Kennedy&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30149</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:55:11 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #63 from LNHammer</title>
         <description>comment from LNHammer on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, what's so amusing and awful about the Roman history artifice?</p>

<p>---L.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  3:45 PM by LNHammer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30153</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:45:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #64 from Erik V. Olson</title>
         <description>comment from Erik V. Olson on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Erik Olson said: The Compleat Diagram of Strange Persons is not really Compleat.</i></p>

<p>Erik Olson said no such thing. Erik Nelson did.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  4:31 PM by Erik V. Olson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:31:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #65 from Eloise Mason</title>
         <description>comment from Eloise Mason on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ack! I'm sorry, Erik, I didn't mean to confuse you with Erik. My head thought there was only one Erik who posts here regularly.</p>

<p>I'd go back and fix it if I could, but I can't, so I won't, as we used to say on the playground.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  5:04 PM by Eloise Mason&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:04:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #66 from Niall</title>
         <description>comment from Niall on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to have a guitar *exactly* like the one the slightly less deranged aye aye is playing in "We like the moon!".</p>

<p>Then I bought a twelve-string, and yes, my fingers really did bleed.</p>

<p>Finally, I realized that unlike the semi-non-unhinged aye aye, I don't got rhyth *ploink* mmmmm!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003  7:26 PM by Niall&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:26:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #67 from Tom Whitmore</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Whitmore on 20.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>_A propos de rien_, I'd like to say that I applaud the adding of the "Previous 200 postings" bit -- makes it much easier to see what I'd missed. And the search functions seems like it will be useful sometime, but I haven't used it yet other than for a very quick egoscan....</p>

<p>Cheers,<br />
Tom</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 20, 2003 10:32 PM by Tom Whitmore&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:32:06 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #68 from Claude Muncey</title>
         <description>comment from Claude Muncey on 21.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just tried out the Eater of Meaning on my own blog (the mad scientist always tries it out on himself first, right?).  I think it has a real future in literature. </p>

<p>Besides morphing the name of my blog to <b>Oneself Pilgrimages's Walnuts: A viewpoints of therapists workers fronts grotto levels</b> and my name to Clanging Munsey (too damm close for comfort) it really did a job on the names from quotes on the right side:</p>

<p>-- Thomas Merton to <b>Thoughtlessness Meritorious</b><br />
-- Mohandas Gahdhi to <b>Mohammed Gangplank<br />
</b><br />
Besides, any program that can come up with sentences like <blockquote><i>Why putter in timber on thimble settlement of pagination?</i></blockquote> or <blockquote><i>Thermodynamics havana beehives tyrannosaurus, anders murmuring, andy forest a timmy then canvasser seedling invariantly, buttocks in thermofax endeavors theorize always fairbanks. Thirds of it . . . always.</i></blockquote> deserves an audience.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 21, 2003 12:42 AM by Claude Muncey&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:42:15 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #69 from Bruce Adelsohn</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Adelsohn on 21.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teresa,</p>

<p>Thanks for the several recent history Particles.  Here are two more for you:</p>

<p>That Wacky Millennium!<br />
http://pw2.netcom.com/~rogermw/millennium.html</p>

<p>and</p>

<p>That Wacky Century!<br />
http://pw2.netcom.com/~rogermw/century.html</p>

<p>And add another vote for wide dissemination of The Eater of Meaning.  It's a good thing I work overnights, when the bankers don't come in much, when I first saw and tried it.  (Where do you find such wonderful toys?)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 21, 2003  6:44 AM by Bruce Adelsohn&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30202</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:44:33 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #70 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on 21.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, thank you for suggesting the longer list. I'm finding I really like it -- makes good things better, and bad things easier to track down and kill.</p>

<p>Larry, that was a reference to the famous story about the monarch telling Sir Christopher Wren that the newly completed St. Paul's Cathedral was <i>amusing, awful,</i> and <i>artificial</i> -- words which at that time meant something more like <i>amazing, awe-inspiring,</i> and <i>artful or ingenious</i>.</p>

<p>Robert, my initial reaction was the same as yours: If it's "La Confidential," they've misspelled "confidencial." And I've always thought you were the best proofreader in the county.</p>

<p>Must run off to work now.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 21, 2003  8:14 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:14:02 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #71 from Sylvia Li</title>
         <description>comment from Sylvia Li on 21.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teresa, that <i>Society for the Practice of Avoidance-Based Time Control</i> particle really hit home... I had been up for 36 hours when I read it. I've saved a copy; if I can remember to re-read it from time to time, it just might keep me from a nervous breakdown. (Hrm. What does one call that, now? There's a distinctly 'fifties' flavour to "nervous breakdown" -- surely the term must be obsolete.) </p>

<p>Anyway. Thank-you. It was helpful.</p>

<blockquote>Go to sleep. I will still love you.</blockquote>
]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 21, 2003  6:46 PM by Sylvia Li&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:46:11 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #72 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on 22.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tapir is eating breakfast. I'm going to sleep now.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 22, 2003  1:27 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2003 01:27:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #73 from LNHammer</title>
         <description>comment from LNHammer on 22.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh.</p>

<p>---L.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 22, 2003 11:03 AM by LNHammer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30276</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:03:11 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #74 from Erik Nelson</title>
         <description>comment from Erik Nelson on 22.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re where do the cryonics guys fit on the diagram, <br />
I'd say near where the "elitists" are.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 22, 2003  4:34 PM by Erik Nelson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30347</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:34:38 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #75 from Erik Nelson</title>
         <description>comment from Erik Nelson on 23.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another baby tapir website:</p>

<p>http://www.zoo.org/spotlight/ss.htm</p>

<p>(found it on the weblog at girlhacker.com )</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2003 11:13 AM by Erik Nelson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30475</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:13:54 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #76 from Tom Whitmore</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Whitmore on 23.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>T, I merely asked whether such a longer list existed for statistical purposes; you decided that such a longer list had practical applications. Kinda like what happened with Mendel's (statistically known to be flawed) work on genetics....<br />
Cheers,<br />
Tom</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2003 12:46 PM by Tom Whitmore&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30488</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:46:29 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #77 from Bruce Arthurs</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Arthurs on 26.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just took a look at the "DORKSTORM: The Annihilation" link on Particles, with the 10 Geekiest hobbies.</p>

<p>Hmmm.  I'd say the writer exaggerates the Furries/Plushies', umm, sexual adventurism.  Most of the Furry people I've known have been into it because they like comics, and specializing in anthropomorphic comics makes them different (= "better") than the ordinary comics fans.</p>

<p>And whatever happened to Chess as the classic geek activity?  </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2003 12:01 PM by Bruce Arthurs&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30708</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:01:40 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #78 from Erik Nelson</title>
         <description>comment from Erik Nelson on 27.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>related to  "Brag of the Subgenius",<br />
http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/brag<br />
will give you a random subgenius-brag generator.</p>

<p>Maybe it's a subgenus of subgenius?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2003  1:24 PM by Erik Nelson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30753</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:24:20 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #79 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on 27.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arggh, I lost track of this thread...</p>

<p>It was "A monk cannot shave his own head."  An odd proverb, especially since it's not particularly true (I shave my own head).  I think it means something like "no man is an island."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2003  2:16 PM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30755</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:16:45 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #80 from adamsj</title>
         <description>comment from adamsj on 27.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it's a corruption of a reference to communal living: A monk cannot have his own shed.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2003  2:21 PM by adamsj&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30757</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:21:21 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #81 from Skwid</title>
         <description>comment from Skwid on 27.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I just say that, regarding the delightful translations of Baby Got Back that have appeared in Particles, I am baffled by the confusion on what the line immediately following "But that butt you got makes "Me so horny."</p>

<p>A cursory listening to the song shows it to be "Ooo, rump of smooth skin" quite clearly, IMNSHO.  "Rumpled smooth skin?"  Please.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2003  3:32 PM by Skwid&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:32:45 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #82 from Anne</title>
         <description>comment from Anne on 27.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe "Rumpled smooth skin" refers to spinning records into gold.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2003  3:35 PM by Anne&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:35:52 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #83 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on 27.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>adamsj, or living in West Hollywood: a hunk cannot shave his own meds.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2003  3:44 PM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#30768</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:44:30 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #84 from Alan Bostick</title>
         <description>comment from Alan Bostick on 29.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: "The buck doesn't stop here":</p>

<p>If the Truman Administration's motto was "The buck stops here," that of the Bush White House seems to be <a href="http://www.spicejar.org/asiplease/archives/000072.html" rel="nofollow">"Button move!"</a></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 29, 2003  5:31 PM by Alan Bostick&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:31:15 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #85 from pericat</title>
         <description>comment from pericat on 29.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>zappenduster = pitch-dark, according to <em>Langenscheidt Standard Dictionary</em>. It has some words <em>Cassell's</em> doesn't, though the latter seems to have more complete definitions.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 29, 2003  8:33 PM by pericat&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:33:28 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #86 from Tom Whitmore</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Whitmore on  4.Nov.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a tangent here, whilst digging through some boxes of Odd Books from my father's library, I found a small batch of technical reports from the Stanford Research Institute and one from the US Naval Ordnance Test Station. The four from SRI are part of a study on Operations Analysis for Seaborne Deterrent Systems - such titles as "The Law of War and the Development of Future Weapons Systems" and "An Analysis of Soviet Policy in Five Crises". The NOTS paper is volume 12 of the Studies in Deterrence, "Deterrence as an Influence Process" by Ithiel de Sola Pool, with the collaboration of Barton Whaley (a name some of you may remember from the Magic Cellar days). </p>

<p>The largest edition on any of these was 310 copies (the NOTS volume, which also includes its original distribution list). These strike me as being fairly important primary historical documents for someone researching cold war policy. Of course, I can't find a whole lot about them on the Internet. </p>

<p>Anyone know of a library that's trying to build a collection of this sort of information? I'd like to find them a good home. None are marked as classified; the NOTS paper explicitly says it's unclassified.</p>

<p>If "all knowledge is contained in fanzines" and "this conversation is an extension of fanac by other means", then there's at least a chance that the knowledge I seek is available here, right?</p>

<p>Cheers,<br />
Tom</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  4, 2003  7:45 PM by Tom Whitmore&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:45:03 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #87 from Darkhawk</title>
         <description>comment from Darkhawk on  5.Nov.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Completely ignoring the established Open Thread conversation, I post to note that my father sent me an email earlier today containing the command</p>

<p><i>Type "Speed of sound in smoots per second" into google</i></p>

<p>which, when fulfilled, generates results quite ticklesome in a "must tell Teresa about" sort of way.</p>

<p>So I post about it in your direction rather than merely noting it down in my journal.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2003  2:24 AM by Darkhawk&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2003 02:24:03 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #88 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on  5.Nov.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thank you, and it is a ticklish factoid.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2003  6:10 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2003 06:10:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #89 from Tom Whitmore</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Whitmore on  5.Nov.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, when I type that in in quotes I get no sites; when out of quotes, 61, the first of which is about drum sequencing. The second generated a kill-Explorer msg when I tried to delete its popups, but looked like it might have been funny. Given the lability of Google, Darkhawk, can you add a direct link to where you were going? </p>

<p>Puzzledly,<br />
Tom</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2003 11:57 AM by Tom Whitmore&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:57:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #90 from Nao</title>
         <description>comment from Nao on  5.Nov.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, you have to make sure that none of the words are capitalized. (I had the same problem). <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=speed+of+sound+in+smoots+per+second&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8" rel="nofollow">here's the link anyway</a>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2003 12:09 PM by Nao&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#31378</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#31378</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:09:26 -0500</pubDate>
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      <item>
         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #91 from Tom Whitmore</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Whitmore on  5.Nov.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thx, Nao! Silly of me to think that capitals as in the original post might actually be relevant, I suppose, or quotes, or any other sort of marking....</p>

<p>Cheers,<br />
Tom</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2003  1:01 PM by Tom Whitmore&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#31381</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#31381</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2003 13:01:27 -0500</pubDate>
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      <item>
         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #92 from Darkhawk</title>
         <description>comment from Darkhawk on  5.Nov.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm sorry about that -- I only noticed the capitals thing a fair bit after I posted.  Glad that it was figured out before I re-accomplished useful consciousness.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2003  2:38 PM by Darkhawk&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#31389</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#31389</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:38:49 -0500</pubDate>
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      <item>
         <title>Open thread 8 -- comment #93 from Mary Kay</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Kay on  6.Nov.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, oh, oh!  I want that tornado quilt!</p>

<p>MKK--lived through many an Oklahoma Spring</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2003  7:54 PM by Mary Kay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#31431</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003840.html#31431</guid>
         <pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2003 19:54:07 -0500</pubDate>
      </item>
      
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